posted 09-10-2007 11:06 PM         

I think we have set a new record for responses to this thread. It is a good thing.

This thread represents everything that is right about our industry. It also represents everything that is wrong with our industry.

We have work to do and we WILL do it. We will always have critics but until we have a uniformed front, our critics will always see us a easy prey.

posted 09-10-2007 11:06 PM         

Ted

posted 09-11-2007 01:45 PM            

If that's the case, and from Lou's response it appears so, then this is even more disturbing. It would seem that a "surprise inspection" by the accreditation committee was used in order to avoid adherence to the APA complaints standards:

quote:

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1. The Ethics and Grievance Committee receives and expeditiously, fairly and impartially investigates all allegations of misconduct against members of this Association. All allegations shall be in writing, signed by the accuser and sent to the Chairperson of the Committee. The committee shall not consider, investigate nor act upon any allegations which does not meet the criteria.

---

Notice the last sentence. Are you saying that somebody "reached around" the rules and got creative in this "investigation" by taking a different route? If so, I must admit, I find this more troubling, but I'm not prepared to articulate why quite yet.

Now that I've babbled as I've done two or three things at once, let me summarize and get to my point and what's causing me to scratch my head:

posted 09-11-2007 02:46 PM         

There are a number of possible implications with this situation, and none of them are justifiable.

Tom has a real case, and the guy doesn't want to involve attornies. APA wigs should give him public due. If he got the respect that he deserves, perhaps he won't hammer the organization in a public court.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-11-2007).]

posted 09-11-2007 06:24 PM            

For the moment Tom can not reply.

I started this post because of concern for all the information that was appearing on the anti-site that shouldn't be there. I believe this is a great example of the mis-information helps those guys.

I have talked to Tom about this and having known him for sometime I believe him to be a good honest person and don't think he has an unethical bone in his body.

I can't really respond to the investigation because I wasn't there but I do have some concerns about the APA and the way this was all handled.

Having one student say that the school was letting students go early might need to be investigated. Even if he was a friend of Grogan's and was just trying to cause problems for Tom. I can't see how a one or even two day surveilance of any school would prove anything.

Any school having a valid complaint against it should be notified of the complaint and the beginning of an investigation into that complaint. I don't know what happened here but it seems to me that the whole situation could have been handled better and easier for all concerned with no tarnishing of anyone's reputation. The director of any school should be held to the same standards as any other school and if not met should be corrected and instructed on what was wrong and how to correct it. This should be an ongoing process on eveyone part to assure that everyone is doing what is necessary to produce students capable of proceeding in pursuing their goal. Let's not forget that students are supposed to accomplish an internship to show their skill level.

Skip I don't know what test the APA could give that would show competency any better than the final test schools are supposed to give. In fact when I completed the in-school part of my training I took the APA test for membership on the same day I took my final, which I passed.

One last thing and I am not knocking the Backster school, so correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that part of the hours required for completion at Backsters school was done after the in-school phase in the form of a research project or something like that? If that is the case how could anyone be sure that the student actually did the work. I am not saying they didn't but they could have someone else do everything and turn it in. Even if they did it themselves how does anyone know they used the correct number of hours to do it?

Again not trying to demean or cast aspersions on the Backster school to my knowledge it is a fine school and the students all receive a top notch education. The former was just an example.

I have to go now so will check later to see what is next. We need this forum and the free exchange of information. We don't need people getting angry and fighting. That is when we lose sight of the enemy and he sometimes becomes us.

Jack

posted 09-11-2007 06:46 PM            

I think you're right. As a profession, we can't ignore complaints, even those that are anonymous. However, as I said before, I wouldn't give an anonymous complainant any credibility or George would run us until we're useless.

In a case such as this (assuming there's nothing else I know - which we don't know in this case), were I making decisions, a phone call or email regarding the "complaint" would be made to the school, examiner, etc. If someone were complaining about me, I'd want to know.

posted 09-12-2007 11:33 AM            

Why stifle a good conversation? A real incident has resulted in a discussion of many hypothetical questions, which, I think, has been healthy. (Sure there are some things that I don't think needed to be discussed, but that's just my opinion.) I have no doubt we have good people taking care of what's going on - and many are reading this. I haven't asked any of them for more information as I know they can't say. You can't act as if knowledge of this issue - whatever it is - hasn't resulted in questions about how such things are handled. You yourself are now a better informed member of the APA regarding the By-laws.

What makes you think you're going to know anything when this is over? There's no clause that says they are required (or even authorized) to release the info to us here.

quote:

---

7. Information obtained by the Grievance Committee is considered privileged and must not be released outside the Committee or Board of Directors.

---

The way I read that, you shouldn't even know an investigation has commenced.

posted 09-12-2007 01:09 PM         

Barry,

Excellent point regarding the bylaws of the APA, which we as members need to address. The discussion is great, reaching conclusions before a final determination is made by a full investigation is where I have a problem.

Stat,

posted 09-12-2007 03:01 PM         

Barry, your points are always inarguably rational.

posted 09-12-2007 04:12 PM            

I do know that those who will have to make decisions are likely reading this, and my hope is that our bantering will help them fully address this in the end - regardless of the outcome. In other words, I think this is going to have to be like some of those well-crafted Supreme Court decisions that end the issues without room for, well, whining. If we can give them the arguments before the fact, I suspect the investigation and results will be thorough and satisfy (if that's possible) all those who are paying attention. Additionally, this may result in suggestions for changes in the process, and who knows, that could also be part of whatever conclusion we see (or not).

In other words, if we forecast our potential problems now, they are better prepared to address them - not for a "cover up" mind you, but a means of making peace and doing the right thing with as little turmoil as possible. I hope that makes sense.

posted 09-14-2007 12:57 PM         

He told me to tell you all that he has not abandoned the issue/site, but that he is waiting for Ralph to shoot him a new password. Thanks ahead for a quick reply Ralph!

posted 09-14-2007 01:26 PM            

I haven't done anything with Tom's login. i haven't changed anything and I've resent his password twice. I'm not sure what his issue is, but its not on my end. I told him if he is having trouble then email me the email he receives when I resend the password. (i don't see it because it is encrypted) My hands are tied here.

------------------
Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator
http://www.polygraphplace.com

posted 09-15-2007 12:15 AM            

Tom Kelly has been having trouble posting here, so he wrote the following post, emailed it to me, and asked me to post it for him.

The following is Tom Kelly's post:

Want to know something very interesting? Skip Webb was accusing us of releasing TV's report and posting it on antipolygraph.org. TV inspected us in March and sent the inspection report, which was incomplete since it was missing a age. Gordon Vaughn just got around to sending us by Fedex the new updated inspection report on 9-12-07. The new one posted on the site is very different from the one we received. So if we just got the new report, and only had the old one, how could anyone but the APA have made that posting? It seems the APA has a real problem
explaining that! Also, the report contains new material that was not in the original. I don't think it is fair to add new info months after the original. Plus, the report contains stuff I did not say and other things taken out of context. It also contains much info outside the issue of the inspection which is unfair. Anyway, we'll see where this goes.